Greatest Cruiserweight of All Time: Round 2: Eddie Guerrero vs. Chris Benoit

Eddie had everything Benoit had and more. He was more of a complete package and his character was awesome.

If you're telling me Eddie could chain wrestle with Benoit I'm telling you that you're full of shit. Outside of Regal nobody could chain with Benoit, and the Crippler character was great...quiet, hard working, great technical guy, and he had intensity.

I think Chris was an overall better performer. Plus, could really honestly pick a dude who graduated from AAA compare to someone who came from The Dungeon?

You're making me vomit with that chain wrestling talk.

Even if it isn't about chain wrestling, Benoit was more entertaining. I mean hell, he had long ass matches against Regal and Malenko, his feuds with Jericho and Triple H were great. And he was one of the best chasers in the entertainment industry.

This is without a doubt going to be the toughest match of the entire tournament. If the brackets had ended up a little differently, this would have been the finals for sure. Since this is so difficult for me, I'm going to break this down as much as I can in order to make a decision.

I'm just going to preface this by saying I'm stricly talking about Benoit the performer. Any praise I give him is purely artistic.

Impact - Benoit had a huge impact on the business, as he was able to get over based on nothing but wrestling. No gimmicks, no pyro, no great mic-skills. None of that. Just pure wrestling. Even guys like Bret Hart had extra features to them that allowed the audience to connect with them outside the ring, but Benoit did it all in the ring. I think he changed the business in a big way after proving such a thing was possible. But on the other hand, Eddie did not something more difficult. Let's not forget that Eddie was under 6'(even smaller than Benoit), Hispanic, and still managed to get a WWE title reign(and unlike Rey Mysterio it wasn't a sympathy reign). Maybe people don't realize it now, but Eddie opened up many doors with his reign. He opened the door for Rey, Booker, and any future minority who will become WWE Heavyweight Champion in the future. Eddie Guerrero

Draw - Neither were stellar PPV draws as champions. Eddie did surprisingly awful, which didn't make much sense because a year later he would become the number 1 ratings draw on Smackwon. It could be because nobody cared about seeing against JBL. I'm not sure, but this is not the time for excuses. Benoit on the other hand did a pretty decent job. The numbers in 2004 were around the same range as the year prior, but to be fair, Benoit wasn't even spot-lighted during his reign. One could argue that 2004 was the year of Eugene, not Benoit. As I mentioned, Eddie was a huge ratings draw for Smackdown in his feud with Rey, I know this for a fact. I haven't a clue what Benoit was doing on RAW tv after losing the championship, so since I don't have his quarter hour ratings to compare I'll have to go based off their PPV numbers as champions. In that case, I give it to Chris Benoit

Micwork - Should be pretty obvious who the better of the two is here. Benoit could do pretty much everything. I even disagree with those who say he had no charisma, Benoit had plenty of it. But mic skills is a totally different thing, and he just didn't have it. Eddie was excellent on the mic however. He could cuts psychotic promos(Rey Mysterio feud), arrogant promos(WCW), comedy promos(Los Guerreros, feud with Batista), or determined underdog promos(vs. Brock Lesnar). Eddie Guerrero

Character - Real tough one. On the one hand, Eddie had a more fan friendly gimmick in his WWE years. The "Lie, Cheat, Steal" gimmick was so engaging and he did it so much better than babyface Flair IMO. Some might say Benoit had no character, but that's precisely the character he was playing. No non-sense, kick-ass, ruthless machine. In the end I gotta go with Eddie Guerrero

Ringwork - I'd only put one person over Benoit here, and that's Eddie. When Eddie was at his best he was so much better than Benoit. His matches with JBL, Rey Mysterio, and tag-team work with Art Barr outshine anything Benoit's ever done. Eddie Guerrero

Workrate - Even though Eddie on his best day was better than Benoit on his best, there were very few bad Benoit matches, and for that period when Eddie was into the drugs bad you could really see it in his work. I can honestly only think of one bad Benoit match in his entire career and that's the tag team match on RAW w/Jericho against La Resistance. Other than that he always pulled out atleast a solid match. Chris Benoit

Charisma - So like I said, it's a giant misconception that people think Benoit didn't have charisma. He certainly did. Just not the type you're used to after seeing Hogan and Rock. But he was intense as hell. Nobody could come out to the ring and look as deadly as Benoit. It's funny nowdays seeing all the Benoit-immitators in the indy's trying to come out and wrestle exactly as he did, but the one thing none of them can ever pull off is actually matching his intensity. However, Eddie still takes this. Everyone loved to cheer the guy. Eddie Guerrero

Longevity - Both have accomplished so much in their careers. I feel that Benoit reached that main event level long before Eddie did however. In WCW they tried to give him that world title reign, and when he jumped to WWF he was immediately thrown into the main event level. Plus as I mentioned, Eddie had a real weak point in 99-01 because of his drug issues, so Benoit had reached his peak and sustained it long before Eddie had in 2003. Chris Benoit

Selling - This is selling as in selling a limb or selling pain in a match. Benoit was king at this. There were nights where it'd look as if he fucked up a move and was injured for real, and later that night I'd read on the internet that he was just working the crowd. Eddie was also really good at this, but I can't help but think of No Way Out 2004, after Brock murdered his ribs, Eddie forget for a brief moment to sell the ribs and ran around the ring in excitement from his championship. Kind of nitpicky, but we're comparing two greats here. Chris Benoit

Eddie: 5
Benoit:4

I vote Eddie Guerrero.

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Even if it isn't about chain wrestling, Benoit was more entertaining. I mean hell, he had long ass matches against Regal and Malenko, his feuds with Jericho and Triple H were great. And he was one of the best chasers in the entertainment industry.

Eddie also had long matches with Regal and Malenko. He went hold for hold with those guys on the mat just as well as Benoit did. Remember the 2/3 falls match with Malenko in ECW? Maybe Eddie threw in a bit of lucha to mix things up, but he never slowed anybody down on the mat.

Mr. Tambourine Man wrote:

Ringwork - I'd only put one person over Benoit here, and that's Eddie. When Eddie was at his best he was so much better than Benoit. His matches with JBL, Rey Mysterio, and tag-team work with Art Barr outshine anything Benoit's ever done. Eddie Guerrero

Alright MTM this is where I have to question you. Wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't.

Eddie has NEVER outshined Chris Benoit. Eddie's matches with Mysterio were great, but he was never on the level of Benoit. Benoit was having 45 minute matches with Dean Malenko and the two never used a hold more then once. At the Brian Pillman Tribute Show he and Regal exchanged chops until their chest were bleeding. Eddie has never done anything to that level. Benoit had better work then Bret Hart himself, and I have a hard time believing that anyone who was trained in the Lucha Libre Style would have better ring work then someone from the extended Hart Family.

Lucha Libre is a style founded on principles of light working and high flying moves. Benoit only went to the top to do diving headbutts, nothing more. He was a very stiff worker and he made you work in a match, Eddie was more of a laid back kind of guy, who really only hit you with light punches and kicks. To be brutally honest, Eddie lost his ability to do that when he gained weight with the roids. Eddie didn't do as many cool moves as he did when he was in WCW's Cruiserweight Division. Benoit would bust out three German's and then hit you with a Dragon Suplex any time he wanted. And he did it to damn near anyone.

In the end both are great, and both deserve to win the tourney, but I will never understand how you could say Eddie had better ring work then Benoit. Benoit could out chain Eddie then put him to shame with his suplexes. Plain fact.

And I do remember that, but Lucha didn't slow guys down it sped them up from a normal technical pace. And that was Eddie before his roid day. Big difference between that and his JBL/Mysterio days.

stl311 wrote:

Alright MTM this is where I have to question you. Wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't.

Eddie has NEVER outshined Chris Benoit. Eddie's matches with Mysterio were great, but he was never on the level of Benoit. Benoit was having 45 minute matches with Dean Malenko and the two never used a hold more then once.

But how much depth was there beyond just the fighting spirit in those matches?

Granted the smart mark crowd ate it up and the marks had major respect for it, but did it garner the emotion from the fans like Rey/Eddie at Halloween Havoc 97? Did we get a moment similar at all in emotion to when Eddie was ripping off Rey's mask? Where's Benoit's iconic brawl? Eddie-JBL had a ***** performance at Judgment Day 2007 in ways Benoit just couldn't. When Benoit worked with a much more established JBL two years later at Wrestlemania they didn't do anything above average. I mean if we were talking about anyone other than Eddie, I'd say Benoit was the greatest. I just think as good as Benoit was, Eddie was just slightly better at producing classic matches.

Benoit was excellent at playing one particular function: Intensity. Eddie couldn't beat him there. Whether Benoit was a heel trying to rip apart the babyface or playing the face role and making a comeback, Benoit was the best at this. But Eddie was much more versatile.

Plus Eddie was generally a lot safer to work with. There's a long list of guys who were injured by Benoit(that's where he got the name, right).

Sabu (Broken Neck)
Ron Simmons (shoulder)
Hack Myers
Mark Henry (broken arm)
Al Snow (can't remember the exact nature)
Eddie Guerrero (twice knocked him out cold)

Among others whom I've forgotten.

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At the Brian Pillman Tribute Show he and Regal exchanged chops until their chest were bleeding.

And when they met again years later on Velocity and Smackdown, they basically had to rehash the same match. Compare this with Eddie and Rey who went from a real fast paced cruiserweight battle in 1997 that revolved all around a confident Eddie picking Rey apart to their encounter on Smackdown in 2005 which saw Eddie almost broken after so many losses to Rey, gradually gaining confidence throughout the match.

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Eddie has never done anything to that level.

I already brought up the JBL match. I've never seen anyone bleed like Eddie had that night.

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Benoit had better work then Bret Hart himself, and I have a hard time believing that anyone who was trained in the Lucha Libre Style would have better ring work then someone from the extended Hart Family.

In my opinion Eddie was better than Bret and Rey was better than Owen. Certainly Eddie and Rey were better the rest of the Hart or Hart trainees at least.

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Lucha Libre is a style founded on principles of light working and high flying moves. Benoit only went to the top to do diving headbutts, nothing more. He was a very stiff worker and he made you work in a match, Eddie was more of a laid back kind of guy, who really only hit you with light punches and kicks. To be brutally honest, Eddie lost his ability to do that when he gained weight with the roids. Eddie didn't do as many cool moves as he did when he was in WCW's Cruiserweight Division. Benoit would bust out three German's and then hit you with a Dragon Suplex any time he wanted. And he did it to damn near anyone.

By the end of his WWE run Benoit lost a lot of ability as well. He wasn't doing 75% of what he'd done years earlier. A lot of his matches were pretty much the same with the dozen german suplexes, chops, and stiff shots. He became pretty much a brawler.

Personally I thought Eddie produced some of his best work in his last years. Maybe it's similar to Shawn Michaels where being broken down caused him to improve his storytelling.

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In the end both are great, and both deserve to win the tourney, but I will never understand how you could say Eddie had better ring work then Benoit. Benoit could out chain Eddie then put him to shame with his suplexes. Plain fact.

But chain-wrestling isn't the only thing. Looking at both mens entire body of work and picking out their best matches, I just find Eddie to be slightly above Benoit. I mean take any three Benoit matches in the world and I don't think they can beat Eddie-JBL at Judgment Day 2004, Eddy-Rey at Halloween Havoc 97, and Eddie-Rey(6/05)

Mr. Tambourine Man wrote:

But how much depth was there beyond just the fighting spirit in those matches?

Granted the smart mark crowd ate it up and the marks had major respect for it, but did it garner the emotion from the fans like Rey/Eddie at Halloween Havoc 97? Did we get a moment similar at all in emotion to when Eddie was ripping off Rey's mask? Where's Benoit's iconic brawl? Eddie-JBL had a ***** performance at Judgment Day 2007 in ways Benoit just couldn't. When Benoit worked with JBL later that year at Wrestlemania they didn't do anything above average. I mean if we were talking about anyone other than Eddie, I'd say Benoit was the greatest. I just think as good as Benoit was, Eddie was just slightly better at producing classic matches.

Depth? If you can go 45 minutes without doing the same move twice you have a lot more then "Fighting Spirit". The match didn't need to have emotion, it didn't need the smarks to love it. It didn't need the marks respect. It was a story of, "here are two young guys trying to make a name for themselves by beating the unholy hell out of each other when Hogan won't even take chairshots anymore." That was the story it told. It said we are the next generation of wrestling, we are the future, and we will show you that wrestling is more then punch, kick, choke, finishing move. As far as his match with JBL goes, you said it exactly. It was later in the year while JBL was nursing a back injury. Keep in mind Benoit was also a good 3 inches taller and 10 pounds less then Eddie. You may think that it doesn't matter but Eddie looked a lot bigger then he really was. As far as classic matches go, Hogan was good at producing classics, so was Randy Savage, are you telling me you would take them in a greatest Heavyweight tournament? I wouldn't put it past you to take Hogan a couple of rounds but seriously you'd not vote him all the way.

Mr. Tambourine Man wrote:

Benoit was excellent at playing one particular function: Intensity. Eddie couldn't beat him there. Whether Benoit was a heel trying to rip apart the babyface or playing the face role and making a comeback, Benoit was the best at this. But Eddie was much more versatile.

Plus Eddie was generally a lot safer to work with. There's a long list of guys who were injured by Benoit(that's where he got the name, right).

Sabu (Broken Neck)
Ron Simmons (shoulder)
Mark Henry (broken arm)
Al Snow (can't remember the exact nature)
Eddie Guerrero (twice knocked him out cold)

First off, the intensity is something nobody could match. Not just Eddie. Second off, Benoit did get the Crippler name from the botched suplex through the table, but Sabu also bent wrong as well. In wrestling when taking a German Suplex you bend where the giver of the move places his hands. Not only did Sabu not do that, but when he got released he turned around and tried to do a backflip bump through the table instead of just taking the back bump. As far as injuries go, you can't really blame him for that one. As far as injuries go, its part of the sport...I'm sure Eddie injured some guys as well.

Mr. Tambourine Man wrote:

And when they met again years later on Velocity and Smackdown, they basically had to rehash the same match. Compare this with Eddie and Rey who went from a real fast paced cruiserweight battle in 1997 that revolved all around a confident Eddie picking Rey apart to their encounter on Smackdown in 2005 which saw Eddie almost broken after so many losses to Rey, gradually gaining confidence throughout the match.

You're comparing apples and oranges here. First off, that's from 97-05 that they did that transformation. The Pillman show was in 03, and Benoit was on Raw in 04, not returning to the blue brand until late 05. Regal was still on Smackdown, and correct me if I'm wrong but they've only face 2-3 times after that. Regal was mostly a Velocity guy, Benoit was used a lot in the United States Title picture. I agree that Eddie/Rey was a good feud, but at the same time you can't really fairly compare the gap that you're comparing.

Mr. Tambourine Man wrote:

I already brought up the JBL match. I've never seen anyone bleed like Eddie had that night.

Yes, yes you did. For more bleeding view the Triple H vs Ric Flair Last Man Standing Match at Survivor Series 05, this coming off a brutal cage match for the Intercontinental Title at Cyber Sunday 05.

Mr. Tambourine Man wrote:

In my opinion Eddie was better than Bret and Rey was better than Owen. Certainly Eddie and Rey were better the rest of the Hart or Hart trainees at least.

You're telling me Eddie was better then guys like Lance Storm, Chris Jericho, and Benoit? I could understand Eddie being better then Bret (especially in the later years) and Owen. But Eddie isn't anywhere close to Lance Storm, or for pound for pound outside of Chris Benoit is the greatest technician in the game. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and most of them stink.

Mr. Tambourine Man wrote:

By the end of his WWE run Benoit lost a lot of ability as well. He wasn't doing 75% of what he'd done years earlier. A lot of his matches were pretty much the same with the dozen german suplexes, chops, and stiff shots. He became pretty much a brawler because that's all he was capable of doing after the injury.

Personally I thought Eddie produced some of his best work in his last years. Maybe it was because he had to slow down, so he made up for it with awesome storytelling, but something about his work at the time all seemed more memorable.

Eddie produced some of his best work because he got so much bigger. When he was in WCW he was barely pushing 200 pounds, then all the sudden he gets up to around 230? He was shorter (like I said before) therefore he looked bigger then he actually was. Which was interesting because Benoit was always pushing the 210-220 mark, he never really gained any size. And a lot of Eddie's Matches were the same, he had his suplexes and his cheating tactic and it always ended with a frog splash. Even Benoit threw in a vertical suplex now and then.

I thought Eddie did well for himself in WWE, but Benoit was good enough to be both a WCW and WWE Champion. Which means something because it means guys like Flair and Hogan saw something in Benoit that they didn't see in Eddie.

Mr. Tambourine Man wrote:

But chain-wrestling isn't the only thing. Looking at both mens entire body of work and picking out their best matches, I just find Eddie to be slightly above Benoit. I mean take any three Benoit matches in the world and I don't think they can beat Eddie-JBL at Judgment Day 2004, Eddy-Rey at Halloween Havoc 97, and Eddie-Rey(6/05)

Chain wrestling isn't the only thing, but Benoit was a lot more innovative with his moves then Eddie was, not only that but Benoit took the air more then he should of. Its hard to sit down and pick any three Benoit Matches, but alas I've got a list that will at least compete with yours.

Chris Benoit vs Kurt Angle (Royal Rumble 2003)- Pure Wrestling Clinic of two of the fastest growing stars in the WWE. You had to be a wrestling fan to enjoy this match.

Chris Benoit vs Chris Jericho Ladder Match for the Intercontinental Championship (Royal Rumble 2001) Benoit wasn't known for his staple of "extreme" wrestling, but in this ladder match he and Jericho took it to the limit for what was still a decent prize in the WWE.

Benoit vs Austin (Smackdown, Date Unknown) Austin was the champion, and this was when the crowd picked up the "WHAT?" thing they do. Benoit suplexed Austin a record 10 times, even Austin said it was one of his better matches.

And that's my rebuttal to that.

Benoit is probably the better murderer.

Benoit, I love Eddie but I prefer Benoit.

stl311 wrote:

Depth? If you can go 45 minutes without doing the same move twice you have a lot more then "Fighting Spirit". The match didn't need to have emotion, it didn't need the smarks to love it. It didn't need the marks respect. It was a story of, "here are two young guys trying to make a name for themselves by beating the unholy hell out of each other when Hogan won't even take chairshots anymore." That was the story it told. It said we are the next generation of wrestling, we are the future, and we will show you that wrestling is more then punch, kick, choke, finishing move.

Sounds like about a million matches I've seen in my life. I give Benoit and Dean more credit than that. There must have been something else to it. What was the story they told from move to move? Was a limb worked over? Who was getting the heat?

What specific match was this anyways?

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As far as his match with JBL goes, you said it exactly. It was later in the year while JBL was nursing a back injury. Keep in mind Benoit was also a good 3 inches taller and 10 pounds less then Eddie. You may think that it doesn't matter but Eddie looked a lot bigger then he really was. As far as classic matches go, Hogan was good at producing classics, so was Randy Savage, are you telling me you would take them in a greatest Heavyweight tournament? I wouldn't put it past you to take Hogan a couple of rounds but seriously you'd not vote him all the way.

Just as I did in this tournament, I'd have to take drawing into count, so yes, Hogan would probably be in the top 6 or so I'd vote to the finals just based on success. Savage for sure as I thought he was the complete package for a Heavyweight both in and out of the ring.

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First off, the intensity is something nobody could match. Not just Eddie. Second off, Benoit did get the Crippler name from the botched suplex through the table, but Sabu also bent wrong as well. In wrestling when taking a German Suplex you bend where the giver of the move places his hands. Not only did Sabu not do that, but when he got released he turned around and tried to do a backflip bump through the table instead of just taking the back bump. As far as injuries go, you can't really blame him for that one. As far as injuries go, its part of the sport...I'm sure Eddie injured some guys as well.

I don't think it's nearly as many as Benoit though. Just pointing out that the stiffness is sometimes a detractor.

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You're comparing apples and oranges here. First off, that's from 97-05 that they did that transformation. The Pillman show was in 03, and Benoit was on Raw in 04, not returning to the blue brand until late 05. Regal was still on Smackdown, and correct me if I'm wrong but they've only face 2-3 times after that. Regal was mostly a Velocity guy, Benoit was used a lot in the United States Title picture. I agree that Eddie/Rey was a good feud, but at the same time you can't really fairly compare the gap that you're comparing.

2003? I'm pretty sure they had their match in 2000. Wikipedia and this site say it was in 2000: http://www.prowrestlinghistory.com/supercards/usa/misc/pillman.html

According to online world of wrestling they had about 6 matches from 2005-2006. So a five year gap, while Eddie-Rey had a 7 year gap(Halloween Havoc was late in the year).

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Yes, yes you did. For more bleeding view the Triple H vs Ric Flair Last Man Standing Match at Survivor Series 05, this coming off a brutal cage match for the Intercontinental Title at Cyber Sunday 05.

Flair's a bleeder for sure. But Eddie didn't just wear a crimson mask that night, the blood actually came squirting out of his head Kill-Bill style. Plus the bleeding contributed to a much better story with JBL using a sleeperhold to open the wound farther and cut off additional blood from reaching the head. Eddie sold the tiredness so much better than Flair. I think a better comparison in bleeding would be Jerry Lawler. That's someone who at some point probably matched what Eddie did that night.

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You're telling me Eddie was better then guys like Lance Storm, Chris Jericho, and Benoit?

Storm and Jericho for sure. Benoit just barely.

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Eddie produced some of his best work because he got so much bigger. When he was in WCW he was barely pushing 200 pounds, then all the sudden he gets up to around 230? He was shorter (like I said before) therefore he looked bigger then he actually was. Which was interesting because Benoit was always pushing the 210-220 mark, he never really gained any size. And a lot of Eddie's Matches were the same, he had his suplexes and his cheating tactic and it always ended with a frog splash. Even Benoit threw in a vertical suplex now and then.

Eddie had the brainbuster and cloverleaf that he fell back on every now and then. Plus the fact that he a interesting gimmick that played into almost every match gives him one-up on Benoit, who if was thrown in there with a dud, could only hope to carry him to a decent match.

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I thought Eddie did well for himself in WWE, but Benoit was good enough to be both a WCW and WWE Champion. Which means something because it means guys like Flair and Hogan saw something in Benoit that they didn't see in Eddie.

But being so small and a minority, Eddie had much more of an uphill battle to face.

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Chain wrestling isn't the only thing, but Benoit was a lot more innovative with his moves then Eddie was, not only that but Benoit took the air more then he should of. Its hard to sit down and pick any three Benoit Matches, but alas I've got a list that will at least compete with yours.

Chris Benoit vs Kurt Angle (Royal Rumble 2003)- Pure Wrestling Clinic of two of the fastest growing stars in the WWE. You had to be a wrestling fan to enjoy this match.

Chris Benoit vs Chris Jericho Ladder Match for the Intercontinental Championship (Royal Rumble 2001) Benoit wasn't known for his staple of "extreme" wrestling, but in this ladder match he and Jericho took it to the limit for what was still a decent prize in the WWE.

Benoit vs Austin (Smackdown, Date Unknown) Austin was the champion, and this was when the crowd picked up the "WHAT?" thing they do. Benoit suplexed Austin a record 10 times, even Austin said it was one of his better matches.

And that's my rebuttal to that.

I remember Benoit-Angle and Benoit-Austin well. Jerricho/Benoit I dont remember at all. Let me find it on youtube later and I'll post my comparison later.[quote]

I'll save the rebuttal until after you review the match.

Okay so I watched Benoit-Jericho earlier. I remember the match now. Fucking awesome ladder match. It’s going to be hard to compare this with Eddie-JBL as one is a non-stip singles match and the other is a ladder match, but surprisingly there was a giant similarity between the two: They both had a sick chair spot in them. And both Eddie and Benoit were the ones on the receiving end of the chairshots in their respective matches. Only difference is in the Benoit match the chairshot was totally forgotten a minute later, while in the Eddie match they made something legendary out of it. I’m going to go in-depth with the Eddie-JBL match and if you can dig out even half as much greatness from the Benoit-Jericho match I will concede, but honestly that match was nothing more than Benoit and Jericho taking turns rattling eachothers brains. Good fun and all, but shaddy work from Benoit. He’s usually the best long-term seller on whatever show he’s on(even better than Eddie I’ll admit), but a minute after he took that dive to the outside and got smacked in the head with the chair, he got right back up and started going apeshit on Jericho. Heck, Goldberg did a better job of selling his knee injury in his only ever ladder match against Scott Hall at Sold Out 99 than Benoit did with a move that could have easily been bought as career ending. Even in a fast-paced ladder match, he could have milked the chair shot for 2-3 minutes. It would have been way more worth it IMO then just moving onto the next phase of the match.

Okay now, the greatness that was Eddie Guerrero vs. John Bradshaw Layfield at Judgment Day 2004:

This was a masterpiece we hadn’t seen the likes of in a long, long time. The storyline itself was pretty lame with JBL giving Eddie’s mother a heart attack, but gotta give it to Eddie. He made that as real as can be. Unlike a typical WWE main event, we didn’t see the typical big man dominates little man, before little man makes a comeback. Instead Eddie behaved just as anyone would and took it right to JBL, nearly squashing him from the get go by beating the heck out of him, throwing him around the ring and at ringside like a ragdoll and beating him at his own game -- brawling. This made both men look very strong in only the first few minutes of the match.
Some nice highspots follow with Eddie attempting a dive to the outside on JBL only to be caught and dropped with a fallaway slam on the concrete. JBL is barely able to turn things around 4 minutes in by whipping Eddie into the steel steps. Nice transitional spot and the damage to the back will manifest itself throughout the match. JBL gets Eddie into the ring and puts on a headlock. Now usually when I see any heel pulling out the headlocks it’s totally useless and serves no purpose other than killing the heat. But in this case it made perfect sense. Eddie was kicking the living shit out of JBL in the first part of the match, so now JBL was doing all he could by grounding him. This doesn’t last long as Eddie escapes and hits JBL with a beautifull armdrag to send him rolling out of the ring. From here the bit turning point in the match happens. Eddie goes for a plancha to the outside, but is caught by JBL and hit was a nasty Fallaway Slam. It takes Eddie a moment, but he’s back up. After everything JBL put him through he’s not ready to die. But JBL follows this with a suplex onto the Spanish announce table and a back body drop in the ring. Back in the ring JBL puts Eddie in the bearhug. Again, any other match and this would be total nonsee, but in the context of this match this is logical. Eddie’s back has been throughout the match thus far(Whipped into the stairs, fallaway slam on the concrete, backdrop onto the table, forearm smash to setup the bearhug), so this is a brutal move to place on Eddie. Not to mention, it serves the same function as the earlier headlock by slowing Eddie down. Michael Cole and Tazz do a great job explaining this on commentary.

Eddie escapes the bearhug and stars his comeback. As expected he does the 3 locomotive suplex’s, only he does an excellent job selling the back pain, as they’re much slower than usual. JBL misses a clothesline from hell and Eddie escapes a powerbomb. Just as Eddie was all fired up and ready to destroy JBL, he turned around to hit the ropes and inadvertently bumped into Hebner and knocked him down. The way he did this was so much more creative than typical WWE ref bumps, and it was the right thing to do here, because it added drama to the match. This was Eddie’s comeback for sure, and the life was sucked out of it here.

Now we’re outside the ring and Eddie makes the mistake of signaling that he's about to throw Bradshaw through the announce table. He accomplishes his goal, but JBL finds a way to turn the tide quite easily. Guerrero takes the sickest chair shot I’ve ever seen. And to say Eddie juices is a giant understatement. This easily replaces Jericho at SMW's Night of Legends as the best bladejob I've ever seen.

Eddie is absolutely screwed here. The mat is covered in blood. Eddie was energetic and ready to go for this one. He could take JBL’s punishment before, but with major blood loss it’s not going to be so easy anymore. The crowd was really hot for Eddie and tried their best to rally behind him. JBL kocked Eddie out with a great looking Lariat, Stan Hansen style. Tries to revive the ref but to no avail, as he’s out cold. JBL in his frustration pounds on the referees back. Finally Charles Robinson runs in and Eddie kicks out at the last second. Crowd pops huge for this. JBL follows up with a powerbomb, again destroying Eddie’s back. Eddie is barely able to kick out. Bradshaw goes for another Lariat, but Eddie ducks this time and the second ref is knocked out.

Hebner is back up and JBL locks in a sleeperhold. Given how much blood Eddie has lost, this spot is absolute genius. Nothing could be more deadly at this point. The blood came pouring out of Eddie’s head like a faucet. At this point Eddie begins his comeback. He “hulks up” in a sense, but doesn’t come off cheesy at all. He sorta does his own version of Jerry Lawler’s pulling the straps down by shaking his fists and doing his dance. JBL goes for another fallaway slam but this time Eddie counters into a DDT. This showed that Eddie learned from the first fall away slam.

Eddie barely drags his nearly lifeless body to the top rope and comes off with a failed Frog Splash. This is a perfect transition into the DQ finish. From here JBL goes outside and we get a very creative disqualification. JBL slides a chair in the ring to distract the referee and intends to hit Eddie with the belt, but Eddy kicks him in the balls! Audience pops huge for this! Eddie picks up his belt and waffles JBL in the face with it. This didn’t make Eddie look like a heel at all, as all he wanted to do from the get-go was get his hands on JBL, and after everything that went on in the match, JBL was just asking for trouble when he brought the belt into the ring. The post match beatdown was awesome as Eddie got his chairshots in and hit JBL with the Frog Splash all the while still selling the effects of the brutal match.

This was like an old southern style bloodbath. Just an incredible match and unlike the Benoit match, there was about a ten minute gap between the chairshot and Eddie exploding on his opponent. The crowd was way hotter for this match involving Eddie and 1 really unproven main event in JBL then they were for Benoit and Jericho in 2001, which was just coming off the WWE’s hottest year, Plus JBL/Eddy managed to make sleeper holds, headlocks, and bearhugs more dangerous than all the innovative stuff Benoit/Jericho did with the Ladder in their match.

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I'll compare the other four matches tomorrow. I had a lot more going on today than I thought I would so I didn't get time to type this post until 30 minutes ago. Expect it in the morning.

Chris Benoit vs. Kurt Angle (Royal Rumble 2003)

Probably one of the most overrated matches of all time. I would have gone with Benoit vs. Villano or Benoit vs. Brock personally. I thought those matches were much better. Anyways, really good match. Not one of the best ever. I mean the work they did on Angle's knee in the opening minute of the match was totally forgotten the entire rest of the match. By the middle portion of the match they moved onto working on Angle's back, and Angle actually sold pretty well for a minute the effects of the back suplexes. But just as in most Angle matches post-01, Angle completely lost it and said "to hell with making sense". Half way through the match Angle lands a belly to belly on Benoit and starts strutting around the ring as if nothing happened. They go back to working back and forth, then when Beniot finally got the upperhand and went to the top rope for the diving headbut, Angle just popped off the mat like a poptart and did that ridiculous spot where runs up and tosses his opponent off. Just dumb given all the work to the back and knee earlier on. And anyways, none of this mattered in the end. The two just pretty did the whole "lets trade finishing submission holds" thing. Good fun. Maybe Angle's best match. Not Benoits though.

Let's compare this with Eddie/Rey, who granted worked a completely different style, but it was stiffer, faster-paced, more energetic, and with all that, still the psychology was way better. As far as selling a limb goes, which Angle did a bad job of in the Rumble match, this match was all about Rey's back. That didn't change from one minute to the next. That was clearly Eddie's plan.

Eddy Guerrero vs. Rey Mysterio ('Halloween Havoc 98')




Eddie is totally confident going into this match. The trash talking and finger-pointing clearly expresses this. Good opening when Eddie tells Rey “I’m going to take… that mask…off…your..head” and swings at Rey, but Rey ducks. Eddy comes off as such a dick here. Nice series of moves by Rey. I’m not even going to get into naming all the moves, because quite honestly, I can’t. Mike Tenay does though, so no need really.

Anyways so Rey is going Cruiserweight crazy on Eddy. He sends Eddy to the outside and does a sort of fake plancha, landing on the ring apron, only for Eddy to take Rey’s legs out from under him and sending him down to the ground right on his back. Eddy takes advantage of this and drags Rey around the ring and throws him backfirst into the steel steps. Eddy brings Rey back into the ring and is already starting to taunt the audience. They HATED this guy. Eddy just destroys the back from here on out. Regular suplexes, back suplexes, tilt-a-whirl backbreakers, and the like. There’s a point in the match where Eddy has an abdominal stretch locked on Rey, and he’s ripping Rey’s mask apart and verbally abusing the audience at the same time. Nice use of a rest spot, not that they need it, but it really adds to the match here. Eddy turns the abdominal stretch into a SICK backbreaker.

After a few failed pin attempts, Rey gets his hope spot in. Eddy has his hands locked with Rey. Rey goes to the ropes and springboards of with a backflip DDT on Eddy. Rey dropkicks Eddy to the outside. Rey tries to catch Eddy with a dropkick off the top rope, but Eddy gets back into the ring and dropkicks Rey right off the apron. Once again proving that Eddy is always one step ahead of Rey. Eddy punishes Reys back some more now; throwing him right into the barricade. Then came the legendary Camel Clutch. This is the move everyone remembers. Eddy has the clutch on Rey and is just ripping away at Rey’s mask. Eddy lets go and now gets Rey in the Gory Special. Somehow, someway, Rey escapes and hits Eddy with a lightning quick armdrag. But before Rey could muster up any sort of comeback, Eddy dropkicks him right in the back. Eddy hits a great variation of the shoulder breaker that starts out in the powerbomb position. Then gets Rey in a horizontal like Bow and Arrow submission.

Rey gets another hopespot when he starts chopping away at Eddie in the corner. Once again, Eddy is just too far ahead of him and before Rey can do anything, Eddy whips Rey into the opposite corner, and somehow Rey finds his legs tangled in the ropes. Eddy’s smile at this point is priceless. But the smile is wiped right off his face when he goes for some sort of a baseball slide on Rey, only for Rey to move out of the way, and now Eddy’s screaming in agony as he goes crotch-fire into the corner. Bobby Heenan had a classic line here “the slide don’t hurt, it’s that quick stop that kills ya.”

Rey FINALLY has his chance here. Eddy’s in enough pain to keep him down for a little bit. This proves to be correct as Eddy slides out of the ring. Rey comes off the top rope with a Super Hero Cross Body. Beautiful move. The tide seems to have turned. As both men get back into the ring, Eddy goes for a tilt-a-whirl much like the one earlier in the match. Only Rey’s learned his lesson and escapes it. Great learned psychology here. Rey lands on his feet and does a nice hurricanrana but only gets a 2 count. The disappointment here must have taken everything out of Rey, because he leaves himself open just long enough for Eddy to come at with a clothesline. Eddy’s back in control. Eddy whips Rey into the ropes, Rey comes off with a spring-board to the middle, tries a 619, but Eddy holds onto Rey’s legs. Rey pulls Eddy out of the ring and to the floor with a headscissors. Rey leaps out of the ring and does a summersalt flip into a flying hurricanrana. AMAZING!

Both men return to the ring. Rey hits Eddy with a corkscrew moonsault. But only gets a 2. Rey goes for a split-legged moonsault off the top rope, but Eddy gets his knees up. Finally Eddy just says “fuck it, I’m going to kill Rey” and rocks him with a deadly powerbomb. Rey kicks out. Eddy is soo frustrated. This is the first time in the match he’s really had that frustration. Up until this point he’s been totally arrogant, just trying to toy with Rey. Now he realizes he’s done everything he possibly can, and there’s nothing he can do to beat Rey.

Eddy drives Rey into the corner. Tries to charge Rey, but Rey catapults Eddie headfirst onto the turnbuckle. Rey signals for the Hurricanrana, but Eddy is still a step-ahead and catches him coming down in a backbreaker. Eddy goes for the finish. Frog Splash time! But Rey moves out of the way. Eddy smartly reacts to this by rolling through in mid-leap. Eddy sets Rey up in the corner for something that could only be described as a top-rope Razors Edge. This is brilliant as if any move can finish Rey off, it’s gotta be something that spikes Rey right on his back. All the work Eddy’s done in the entire match is finally going to culminate here….but wait! Rey counters the move into a Hurricanrana and gets the pinfall!

So as I’ve gone to great lengths to illustrate. The two did an amazing job selling Rey’s back. All the moves done to punish his back were innovative, and never in the match did Rey just forget to sell the back. Even when he got his hope spots in, he’d do a move, and then be cut off immediately to avoid any of that nonsense we saw in the Angle/Benoit match where he sacrifices the story for the sake of some moves. Prime example of this is when Rey escapes the Gory Special, he gets that surge of energy, only unlike Angle/Benoit, they don’t just pretend everything prior didn’t matter. Oh no. Rey escapes the move, hit the armdrag, and within a moment the fresh Guerrero was right back on the injured Mysterio. But there was an even deeper story to this match. As Mike Tenay alluded to, this was sort of a modern day El Santo-Gorry Guerrero deal. Eddy was very bitter towards the charismatic masked wrestlers because of how his father was always the better “wrestler” of his tag team with El Santo, but never received the fame Santo did. This totally played into the whole story of Eddy trying to rip Rey’s mask off. A match where the story goes back 40 years is so much better than the simple story Benoit/Angle told. Not that simple is bad. It's not. Just when the wrestling for Rey/Eddy was already so good to begin with, it clearly takes the advantage with it's deep psychology. Plus I'd argue that Rey/Eddy pulled off better moves than Angle/Benoit.

I'm going to compare Guerrero vs. Mysterio(6/05) and Austin/Benoit (Smackdown) in a minute. I think I may give Benoit the edge here, but we'll have to see.

Just going to pick Eddie for a number of reasons that will be unsaid because I've probably said my opinions on Chris Benoit over a million times. Eddie Guerrero was better though especially out of the ring in interviews and creating a character. He was better on the mic and entertaining in the ring.

Okay so Chris Benoit vs. Steve Austin (Smackdown 2001)

They had a match a week earlier on RAW I believe. Benoit's selling of the cracked ribs was superb, as his selling always is. I loved Austin's psychotic heel work here. Really the only thing good about Austin's heel turn was we got to see a different side of him in the ring, and he proved to be every bit the great wrestler he was hyped to be. The inverted suplex onto the announce table was sick. I loved Benoit's ten German Suplex' here. Unlike Kurt Angle, who just does them for the pop, Benoit's made perfect sense. Austin was destroying him up to this point. The only way to completely level the playing field was to wear Austin out. If Benoit had released the hold, it's possible Austin could control back, so Benoit just did as many german's as he could. Finish was awesome. A roll-up doesn't sound like the most effective move, but given Benoit's ribs were cracked and this caught him by surprise it made perfect sense and allowed Benoit to save face.

Eddie Guerrero vs. Rey Mysterio (Smackdown 06/05)

Told a completely different story than their Halloween Havoc match. In WCW, Eddie was the top guy. He hated Rey just for being loved by the fans, but never actually thought Rey was the better wrestler. Now 7 years later in WWE, Rey is not only more beloved, but he's got Eddie's number after having beaten him multiple times in a row. The look on Eddie's face in just the entrance alone was one that told you everything you needed to know about this feud -- Rey had completely broken Eddie. Eddie seemed very sad and uncertain of himself. This showed in the early going as Rey had the advantage over Eddie, targeting Eddie's bruised ribs. Eddie's control portion of the match was great as he gradually got more confident, then cocky and then scared as he realized he had unloaded everything and he still wasn't quite there. Rey winning was perfect as it was the living embodiment of the feud.

Tough. Both matches tell great stories. I'm going to give the Benoit match the edge in this case because Benoit was the hometown boy, he sold the ribs a little bit better than Eddie, and he had the McMahon factor in his match.

Just let me know when you finish so I can make a rebuttal not 10 posts behind.

I'm done.

I'm going to say Eddie.

Both guys were extremely good wrestlers, but Eddie's style appealed to me more than Benoit's did.

First off, before my rebuttal I'm going to request that a mod or admin splits the debate posts from the whole poll, I got a feeling this debate could be a prime example of what a debate in the debate league should look like.

Give me 45 minutes.

Mr. Tambourine Man wrote:

Sounds like about a million matches I've seen in my life. I give Benoit and Dean more credit than that. There must have been something else to it. What was the story they told from move to move? Was a limb worked over? Who was getting the heat?

What specific match was that anyways?

Sorry little buddy, I had some extra shit to take care of. I'll give you your rebuttal now.

Uh, it was one of the earliest matches they had in WCW. It was at WCW Hog Wild 1996, and it wasn't 45 minutes it was something like 32...I was confusing it with another match they had. I have the link right here, it was when Malenko was playing a heel. Not to sure what kind of story they were aiming for, but all around it had great chemistry.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xz3m3_wcw-chris-benoit-vs-dean-malenko_events

Mr. Tambourine Man wrote:

Just as I did in this tournament, I'd have to take drawing into count, so yes, Hogan would probably be in the top 6 or so I'd vote to the finals just based on success. Savage for sure as I thought he was the complete package for a Heavyweight both in and out of the ring.

Drawing is to close to call. Eddie drew big in Mexico, but Benoit drew big in Japan, Canada, and Germany. I think all and all you could say they did equally well in the United States. Benoit's "Toothless Aggression" really took off well. As did Eddie's Mamacita and his Lie Cheat Steal gimmicks. Either way I wish the bracket didn't turn out like this. I mean both these men deserve final slots. As far as Hogan goes, I give him second round maybe. But that is for another day.

Mr. Tambourine Man wrote:

I don't think it's nearly as many as Benoit though. Just pointing out that the stiffness is sometimes a detractor.

Yeah but anyone who wrestled in Japan is going to be stiff. Hell look at the shots Jericho through at Shawn Michaels. Look at the Mike Awesome/Masato Tanaka feud. That shit went on four years, and was on two different continents. Those two were so comfortable with one another that they threw fuckin taters (wrestling term for really stiff shot to the forehead). In Japan its an honor to be a stiff wrestler. It means two guys are willing to donate their bodies to the sport of wrestling, which in Japan is the greatest honor. I think that more guys get hurt because of stiff wrestling, but at the same time wrestling is a contact sport, injuries happen. In those words it basically means, luck is as luck does. Billy Kidman took out more people then anyone else I know with his shooting star press.

Mr. Tambourine Man wrote:

2003? I'm pretty sure they had their match in 2000. Wikipedia and this site say it was in 2000: http://www.prowrestlinghistory.com/supercards/usa/misc/pillman.html

According to online world of wrestling they had about 6 matches from 2005-2006. So a five year gap, while Eddie-Rey had a 7 year gap(Halloween Havoc was late in the year).l

You're right. The DVD came out in 2003. My bad.

But seriously, how fair is it to compare Benoit vs Regal against Eddie vs Rey, or Eddie vs Chavo, or Chavo vs Rey. Those guys grew up with one another, they wrestled each other constantly, of course the matches are going to be better. That is like when you're watching football. Any given week anyone can win, but the Patriots of 2007 (18-1) had the toughest games (besides the Super Bowl) against guys like Miami, Buffalo, and the Jets. The only one you could really give comparison to is Dean Malenko, who has wrestled Benoit in just about every year of wrestling. Even Jericho admitted in his book they didn't really wrestle one another until they were both in WCW.

Mr. Tambourine Man wrote:

Flair's a bleeder for sure. But Eddie didn't just wear a crimson mask that night, the blood actually came squirting out of his head Kill-Bill style. Plus the bleeding contributed to a much better story with JBL using a sleeperhold to open the wound farther and cut off additional blood from reaching the head. Eddie sold the tiredness so much better than Flair. I think a better comparison in bleeding would be Jerry Lawler. That's someone who at some point probably matched what Eddie did that night.

Jerry Lawler is one hell of a bleeder too. But to get the blood to squirt out like that you have to hit the main vein on the top of your forehead. And if you do that then I wouldn't advise wrestling more then 4-5 minutes afterwards because you will lose a lot of blood and get lightheaded. As far as the sleeper holds go...that's an old school southern wrestling move. You do that when someone is busted open to make it appear like they are almost down and out. One of the best stories to be told in old southern wrestling. On another note, I don't think Flair sold the tiredness...I think he was legit tired due to age.

Mr. Tambourine Man wrote:

Storm and Jericho for sure. Benoit just barely.

Storm for sure? I always thought Storm was the only Canadian who could actually match Benoit hold for hold for hold. Had he had more charisma he would of been something more then a talent enhancer, which happens to a lot of technical guys in wrestling anymore.

Mr. Tambourine Man wrote:

Eddie had the brainbuster and cloverleaf that he fell back on every now and then. Plus the fact that he a interesting gimmick that played into almost every match gives him one-up on Benoit, who if was thrown in there with a dud, could only hope to carry him to a decent match.

Here is where I disagree, Benoit's angles with Angle over intensity, and with Jericho over the Intercontinental Title, were two of the best angles I'd ever seen. I mean just the Jericho being jealous of Benoit and trying to one up him at every chance he could. That created some high class drama that continued on after their feud. Then Angle vs Benoit. Intensity at its finest. They tried so hard to out do each other. Half the time when they outdid each other the other one turned around and out did it right back. I honestly think those two clicked better in the first match with one another then anyone else I'd ever seen.

Mr. Tambourine Man wrote:

But being so small and a minority, Eddie had much more of an uphill battle to face.

But Eddie got a lot bigger then Benoit ever dreamed of getting around the 2000/2001 mark.

Mr. Tambourine Man wrote:

I remember Benoit-Angle and Benoit-Austin well. Jerricho/Benoit I dont remember at all. Let me find it on youtube later and I'll post my comparison later.

After reviewing your takes on the matches, I do think Angle vs Benoit wasn't as good as Mysterio vs Eddie (HH97), but considering it was one of the first few matches they had compared to Eddie and Rey's 200th or something match against each other.

That one goes to Benoit.

JBL vs Eddie was better then Jericho vs Benoit. But only because of the massive story difference. I think had they built up Jericho/Benoit more it would of been a whole different ball game. But I admit, that match you actually had me on.

That one goes to Eddie.

And you said it yourself. Austin vs Benoit was better then Eddie vs Rey 05. But I will say this. Had Eddie still been a cruiserweight, that match probably would of taken the cake.

That one goes to Benoit.

All and all, both were the greatest. But if you get down to it, the brackets didn't play out for either.

Interesting debate to say the least.

Well stl we're going to have to finish this in another thread.

Eddie wins 6-4.

Lock please.